Jonathan Drake

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Posts by Jonathan Drake

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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

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  Jonathan Drake

  their interpretation of the Quran
  

  
  

  So the issue is NOT the book, but how they are interpreting it. This is precisely my point. Lay the blame on the ones interpreting it this way, not the thing being interpreted.
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

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  Jonathan Drake

  @viv

  Comparing something open to interpretation and unprovable to math, which is a closed fact that is not open to interpretation, is a logical fallacy. 

  Pretending the repeatedly plain language and multitudes of commands to kill and rape aren't reality is dishonest.

  You're seriously being a huge hypocrite here. Just a few pages back you were harping on me for supposedly telling people why they think and feel things, and saying only I have the proper understanding of what the books are saying, even though I never said that... 

  But here you are ACTUALLY saying what you accused me of, and saying all who disagree with you are dishonest! Lol wonderful. I feel like maybe you're entire account on this forum exists for satire, that would make sense. I can never tell satire from seriousness.
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

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  Jonathan Drake

  Hundreds of millions people claiming 2+2=5 doesn't make it true. 
  

  Comparing something open to interpretation and unprovable to math, which is a closed fact that is not open to interpretation And is provable, is a logical fallacy. 

  There is never a scenario where any circumstance of context will change what two numbers add up to, however if Muhammed was referring to a specific event when speaking this does change a verses meaning entirely. There is just no comparison existing in what you are saying here.

  and I won't even pay the rest of your post the courtesy of being read if we are resorting to such faulty reasonings. 
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

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  Jonathan Drake

  Jonathan Drake - I have three points for your consideration:

  1. If you're not a Muslim, why do you defend the Quran?

  2. Your view that the Quran is a continuation of God's previous messages is too neat, too simplistic. God allowed Jews and Christians to drink alcohol but then forbade it for Muslims. Why?

  3. Why did God choose such a f**king hopeless method of communicating his message to humans? 

  1. Because even if the Quran isn't inspired or from God or whatever, we should point fingers at the real reasons for these things. And that isn't a book, it's just really bad people who want to cause pain. That's all. They don't even need a reason for it. Throwing the blame on that book is having the side effect of bringing in blame on an entire culture, which then leads to further atrocity, such as the case where the man here in America just shot three innocent muslims in the head. If he understood that there was no real reason for the things these people in ISIS do other than being really evil people, then i would submit those three people wouldn't have died. This is fueling hatred of Muslims who are innocent, and all because they follow this book.

  2. I don't necessarily believe the Quran is from God. So far I see no reason why it can't be necessarily, but I'm not advocating it as such. Or at least I don't mean to. As far as the alcohol goes, I don't know. Perhaps it's comparable to how God gave the Israelites his law, but then Moses supplied extra things of his own before he died. In this way followers of Mohamed would be under Mohammeds law as well as the Quran and the bible? There's a theory, but really- I don't know.

  3. If you believe, the amswer is because of the Israelites. According to the bible, originally God intended to speak with them directly. But when he did they grew fearful and requested a mediator, and after that God never spoke to his people without a human mediator ever again. This is the reason found in the bible. 

  If you don't believe, then I have no idea- it certainly seems to have proven exceedingly inneffective.
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

  1. 
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  Jonathan Drake

  @myelaine

  you said:

  in the bible God makes it quite clear what His plans are for both the earth and mankind. The only "jinn" that aren't in on the plan are the fallen angels and those they "inspire".
  

  Yet as I've shown, the bible shows this is not so. There is knowledge of the outcome but not the means by which it is reached. That is the reason why the Angels covet what they do not have, which is the gospel- because it reveals part of the plan and they may learn something of it through the gospel. It wasn't revealed to them but to us. Hence they covet it, they lust after it because it has meaning for them too. There is no reason for them to covet it if they already know how things are going to go between then and the end, but clearly they do not and they lust after the knowledge they can find in scriptures given to mankind.

  
  

  so when the Quran says the jinn, or the Angels, don't know what God has in store for the earth, this is true. They don't know anything except that the original purpose will be realized, but not how and not when- so the ph covet the bible. Thus the Quran and the bible once again appear to agree. 

  
  
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

  1. 
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  Jonathan Drake

  Also, it's not an interpretation.
  

  Yes it is, because HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people interpret it to mean the exact opposite of what you do. I'd say your outnumbered viv. 

  You personally have said you would hit a woman.

  Yes I did, but in context what I said was that I know my wife would HIT ME if I treated her the way the Quran is depicting in those verses. And I would hit her as well- BECAUSE ITS DESCRIBING NORMAL HUMAN BEHAVIOR IN A HEATED SITUATION WHERE PEOPLE ARE SEVERELY MISTREATING ONE ANOTHER. It is not saying, "hit your wife to remind her of her place." You are all the ones being intellectually dishonest because you WANT the Quran to be the reason for these terrible things, YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY THESE BAD THINGS HAPPEN.

  The truth is, sometimes there is no reason, sometimes people just want to hurt others. THAT is reality, and YOU aren't accepting it.
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

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  Jonathan Drake

  Because you misinterpret one scripture (saying it says the angels continually desire to look into what was the mystery of Christ) and connect it with another one that isn't even about the gospel but the day and the hour. 

  you mishandle the text and "lol" because I disagree...wow

  I did not mishandle the text, I'm starting to think you just don't want to see it.

  
  

  jesus, in the flesh (according to the bible) said that the Angels don't know the day or the hour. Then, quite some time AFTER this, well after Jesus died, Peter wrote that the Angels are longing to look into the gospel.

  the word for longing is, "epithumeo":

  1937 epithyméō (from 1909 /epí, "focused on" intensifying 2372 /thymós, "passionate desire") – properly, to show focused passion as it aptly builds on (Gk epi, "upon") what a person truly yearns for; to "greatly desire to do or have something – 'to long for, to desire very much' " (L & N, 1, 25.12).

  
  

  From epi and thumos; to set the heart upon, i.e. Long for (rightfully or otherwise) -- covet, desire, would fain, lust (after).
  
  

  K, so the Angels long for and covet and lust after the chance to look into the gospel. Why? Why would they desire to look into something which has the sole purpose of demonstrating and showing how gods will was both fulfilled and will be fulfilled? You're saying they already know this, but the bible is showing that they know no more than we do, and the gospel was revealed to man, not Angels- as the word means they long to have, or covet, WHAT THEY DO NOT POSESS. They are just as involved as we are, because their "brothers" in heaven forsook their place and took to following the rebellion, they have their own test- will they choose the right side. It's not much of a test if they already know and have seen the outcome is it? Hence they long to look into gods word. 
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

  1. 
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  Jonathan Drake

  Jonathan Drake - no amount of 'modernising the language' can make this particular verse any clearer. Correct?

  So the question naturally arises: why would God write something, like the Bible, so muddled, confusing and open to interpretation?

  It wasn't written in English. once it was written down it was in the common language of the day and the past events that surrounded it were fresh history. So for a good while the people had no problems, they read and new specifically what it was talking about and knew the language it was spoken in and later written in. Only after several generations went by did a problem arise, at a time when people no longer knew about the Meccans breaking the peace treatise and were easily convinced the Quran literally means, "kill them wherever you find them." Until now not only is the cultural context lost, but we have the issue of translating it. 

  the fault then would not be gods, or the books, but the loss of perspective. When I suggest modernization I mean add to the book the very necessary verses that make it clear what was going on AT THAT TIME, so as to reintroduce the perspective needed to see the meaning behind the words. If this was done, then the Quran could no longer be used as an excuse for these terrible things. The bible as well, add notes that make it clear the real inention- such as the tradition of the house steward. If this was done it'd be clear. 

  But again, the people wanting chaos would just find a new reason.
• 
  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

  1. 
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  Jonathan Drake

  Once Jesus was born in the flesh the angels knew
  

  Thats really strange since it was Jesus in the flesh saying the Angels dont know. Lol
• 
  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

  1. 
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  Jonathan Drake

  We have the books. They advocate murder, rape, abortion, genocide, misogyny, slavery and theft. 
  

  Thats just your interpretation. You have no way of proving your interpretation is correct.